Speakers:
- Business Council of Australia, Executive Director of Advocacy, Ben Wicks
- Australian Industry Group, Victoria Head, Tim Piper
- Victorian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, CEO, Sally Curtain
- Council of Small Business Organisations Australia, Chair, Matthew Addison
- Property Council of Australia, CEO, Mike Zorbas
- Property Council of Australia, Victorian Executive Director, Cath Evans
- Master Builders Victoria, CEO, Michaela Lihou
- Housing Industry Association, Victoria, Executive Director, Keith Ryan
- Urban Development Institute of Australia, Victoria, Director of Policy, Jack Vaughan
Topics: Victorian Government’s work from home bill, unemployment, business investment
E&OE
Ben Wicks, BCA: Standing here today is the engine room of the Victorian economy, represented by every sector in the economy, small and big business, retailers, tradies, manufacturers, right across the gamut, representing thousands of businesses and millions of workers.
We are united. We are united because the work from home legislation is before the Parliament this week. We think it will put a handbrake on the economy and a handbrake on investment.
Our message to the Premier is clear: scrap the Bill. Work in partnership with business and let’s get on with the task of fixing the Victorian economy. Already, we know that the unemployment rate in Victoria is the highest in the country. 18 of the last 24 months, it has led the nation, and we know that’s a problem. That’s an unfortunate statistic.
It’s exactly the wrong time to be introducing a piece of legislation like this that we say costs jobs and costs investment. Business supports flexible working arrangements. We know that because industry data shows that four in five businesses offer flexible working arrangements.
This is a solution looking for a problem. Our members tell us directly that this investment will cost jobs and will cost investment. Already, businesses are considering relocation, they’re considering investment decisions, and they’re considering a gamut of issues to deal with this legislation.
Now, we welcome the Premier’s comments last night to focus on red tape, to focus on growing the economy and to focus on having a partnership with business. Now is the opportunity to show that commitment and to scrap this Bill.
Sit down with business, let’s work in partnership, let’s fix the economy and let’s create jobs.
Tim Piper, AI Group: As you can see by the people around here, this issue is so important to Victorian businesses. We don’t come together that often about issues, but it is important to the entire sector, and when we talk to our members, when we talk generally to people, we recognise the importance that they’re holding about it.
I spoke to a member this morning who said to me, “Working from home could also be working from the Philippines.” That’s the sort of concern that we’ve got. You’ve got to remember that businesses have choices, whether it’s the rest of the country or whether it’s the rest the rest of the world, we want to make sure that we’ve got a strong economy.
It is the chance for the Government to come to the party. It’s the chance for the Government to say “We are working with business, we’re going to support business.”
The Government has certainly said that they want to. This is the first challenge the Government’s got about working with business, and we ask them to do that and to scrap this
potential legislation.
Sally Curtain, VCCI: For 12 months now, the Victorian Chamber has been calling for this mooted right to work from home to be scrapped and abandoned, and obviously we’re united here with all the employer groups that represent every industry across this state in every corner of this state.
Our message is simple: you don’t need it, this is unnecessary, we can’t afford it and in fact, what business needs is incentives to grow our economy and secure Victoria’s jobs.
As we’ve heard, Victoria unfortunately has the highest unemployment rate in the nation, and it continues to rise. We simply cannot afford to send these signals to business. In fact, we want to turn this around. We want to make Victoria the best place to employ people. So surely, at a time when business are on their knees, frankly, we need to be providing incentives for business to grow and invest and create jobs here in Victoria.
Matthew Addison, COSBOA: We oppose this legislation. Here is another bit of red tape being put on small employers who don’t have a team of lawyers, they don’t have a team of HR experts yet here is some more red tape, and we don’t know what problem it is aiming to solve.
We already have federal legislation that provides for employers and employees to negotiate flexible working arrangements. It exists. It happens. Small business are productive and effective when they have those flexible arrangements with the employees. Employees enjoy their workplaces in those flexible arrangements. We already have the framework to do this.
Why bring us another bit of red tape, another set of forms to fill in, and the costs that small business will need to incur to provide the safe place at the at the home, instead of just their business premises.
We don’t know what the problem that is being solved, and that hasn’t been articulated to us. Small business oppose the progress of this legislation.
Mike Zorbas, PCA: This Bill, if it goes forward, is going to bomb business back into the Stone Age. If you are looking to grow the economy in Victoria, you do not saddle hundreds of thousands of businesses with extra red tape in a very difficult time in the economic cycle.
So I say this to the new Premier: firstly, you say you care about being pro-business, then prove it with this legislation. Secondly, if you really do care about growing those parts of the economy that are the primary job creators in this state, then make sure that you scrap every element of this very divisive Bill.
Michaela Lihou, MBA Vic: You can’t build a house from your home. The building and construction industry is critical. We need to deliver over 80,000 homes every year to deliver on the Government’s ambitious targets.
We need to be making sure that we have the flexibility for people to be able to work within our industry. We have a skills and labour shortage at the moment. This divisive legislation is only going to make it harder for us to attract and retain people in the industry. We’re going to have people who are going to be choosing work in remote environments as opposed to on-site construction.
We need to have people who are on-site to ensure compliance, to ensure safety, to ensure that jobs are delivered to the expectations of what consumers would want and what they need. We also need to make sure that apprentices are looked after on site and have on site supervision. Having people working remotely from home is not going to achieve this.
Keith Ryan, HIA: Earlier this year, HIA released its small business conditions survey. The results were pretty damning for Victoria. Quite frankly, only the ACT was deemed to be worse than Victoria when it came to small business conditions for home builders. And to be frank, it’s gotten no better since then.
This legislation is just another nail in the coffin of home builders who are struggling to keep their businesses going. They’re dealing with a lack of insurance, harder laws to comply with, tightening standards and this sort of legislation just makes a lot of home builders, the people who are building homes for our all of us, to go, “What’s the point? Why am I bothering to have a business in Victoria? The Government doesn’t care, they pretended to care, but they haven’t actually done anything to show they really do.”
The Government needs to pull back, stop this legislation. There’s existing laws, let those work and get on with dealing with real issues, not pretend ones.
Jack Vaughan, UDIA Vic: What we have here in Victoria at the moment is a housing crisis. We have a cost of living crisis, and Victorian businesses are telling us that we have a crisis in confidence as they struggle with the increasing burden of new taxes and new regulations. What we don’t have is a work from home crisis.
Our message is simple: we need Government to work with industry, not against us, and help do the things that are the priorities for the state and that is delivering new affordable housing and returning confidence to the state.
Journalist: Has anyone actually had a meeting with Ben Carroll? Has he met with any of you to discuss or consult?
Tim Piper, AI Group: We have had a number of meetings with the Premier’s office over the last few months, but we haven’t met with the previous Premier, nor have we met with the current Premier. However, we are led to believe that there is a high likelihood of the Premier meeting with us early this week, following these discussions, and hopefully before the legislation is actually progressed through in the Upper House.
Journalist: He said today his door is always open. Do you believe that? Does that sound wrong?
Tim Piper, AI Group: The proof will be in the eating of the pudding. We will see whether the Premier is able to speak to us this week. We’ve got a reason to think that it won’t be open because the Premier has always been positive about business but now’s the time to show that he is, now is the time to be making changes to this legislation or getting rid of it altogether or certainly meeting with us as soon as possible.
Journalist: It looks like the Government will put in some kind of exemption for small business. Do you welcome that? I understand you say you don’t want to see the legislation at all, but the Government is still quite insistent that it wants to do something. Are there any other changes you would like to see if the legislation is going through this week?
Tim Piper, AI Group: I think the Government needs to understand that there are so many barnacles on this legislation that it just needs to be scrapped. Whether it’s small business, whether it’s large business, whether it’s where you work from home, whether it’s the stacking they’re talking about, there’s so many problems with the legislation.
We would rather it just be scrapped. Business doesn’t want it, employees don’t want it and it’s just going to create problems for the Victorian economy.
Journalist: The Premier has indicated that he could be open to other cutting of red tape. Are there specific demands that you would have to sort of relieve, if they do go ahead with work from home changes?
Tim Piper, AI Group: Well, we’ve got many changes that we would want to see, red tape just being one of them. We know that there’s red tape in Victoria, we know that any planning expectations are years away, we know that there are concerns around business and the way that business is being run in Victoria. This is just the start of it, though, what we do hope is that is the Government is going to be listening to us holistically, not just about work from home.
Journalist: There has been some speculation that there may be carve-outs for small business. Do you have any reason to have confidence that that is coming?
Matthew Addison, COSBOA: No, I don’t have any confidence that that’s coming, but I agree with where Tim’s coming from, it’s bad legislation. As soon as we start looking at carve-outs, we are complicating bad legislation, so this just gets worse.
I would go back to my opening comments, we have a federal framework. What would be my request of the Victorian Government, duplicate the federal framework therefore, it’s redundant. So why are we on this journey?
Small business don’t need more complexity, let alone big business don’t need to know where these different thresholds are. Best version of a worst case, they want to do a carve out? On behalf of small business we would welcome small business being carved out. It’s not a good idea, let’s not progress anyway.
Journalist: My understanding from what the Premier has had to say in the last couple of days is that Labor will not move amendments, but they will be open to sensible amendments from others. Are you dealing with other parties in the Parliament?
Matthew Addison, COSBOA: There has been limited discussion with the Government, very limited discussion with the Opposition. Certainly, we’re open to discussion. I come back to what problem are we trying to solve here? It hasn’t been properly articulated to us. I’m unaware of that being articulated to any of the other bodies.
What problem are we solving? What does this add? How does this create an incentive to a small business employer to employ another person. What about the raft of businesses that don’t employ anybody at the moment? Why would they, when we’re adding another level of complexity to that employment journey?
Journalist: Have any so have any of your bodies considered launching a High Court challenge if it does go through, or heard from members are?
Cath Evans, PCA: There are so many problems with this piece of legislation. We have put forward a raft of amendments. However, given there has been no consultation about this legislation, there has been no draft exposure bill, there has been no legislative impact statement to fully understand and analyse what the effect on the Victorian economy will be, we believe this legislation should be scrapped.
However, we have been working with the Crossbenchers to look at amendments to the legislation, but the list is endless because this legislation has been very poorly drafted and without consultation, so that the business community could give feedback to the massive number of holes that there are in the way it’s been drafted.
To try and work through this in a very short time frame is near impossible. We are calling upon the Crossbenchers to lead those amendments. However, it is wholly unsatisfactory in the way that this has been conducted.
Journalist: Do you believe that the laws are unconstitutional, given its intersection with the Fair Work Act?
Cath Evans, PCA: So, there is certainly a discussion in the public domain about this, and various legal commentators have said that there are serious questions about the legal merits for this piece of legislation that will have to roll through a court process with the passage of time, and there are you know there are a lot of very serious issues to consider, not just for Victoria, but for the whole of our nation. As this legislation, whilst isolated to Victoria, does have national impacts, and that is what we are concerned about: about the overall effect on not only the Victorian but the Australian economy.
Journalist: So you don’t rule out the Property Council being a party to any High Court challenge.
Cath Evans, PCA: I would expect a High Court challenge to occur with this legislation. Keeping in mind, we do not actually have a Bill which has passed through the Upper House yet, and time will tell how that will evolve over the coming months.
Journalist: Just a question for Sally. I’m just wondering, the Chamber of Commerce. What is the biggest issue for you if these laws are passed?
Sally Curtain, VCCI: I think the complexity it adds on top of all of the red tape that exists for business now. This legislation, as we’ve shown through the unemployment figures, is the poison pill for jobs. So we’re concerned that businesses are making decisions to employ elsewhere.
We simply don’t need any further red tape, we need to be sending signals to business to expand and grow jobs here in Victoria. That’s our very strong message. Scrap this legislation. It’s not needed. There’s sufficient checks and balances federally. Give Victorian businesses a chance, give them some breathing space, free them up from the red tape, and let them flourish and grow.
Journalist: The Premier suggested that it is working, and that a majority of Victorians are already working from home. So, what if you could explain what difference does legislating actually make to Victorian businesses.
Sally Curtain, VCCI: Of course, working from home is already working, and that is why we don’t need to legislate for it. And it’s working because it’s developed between an employer and employees based on their sector, their workplace, their location, their industry, their processes and practices within their organisation.
We do not need Government or Spring Street to intervene in every single relationship across those 700,000 businesses here in Victoria. There is a right to ask to work from home within federal legislation. That is a sufficient check and balance that individuals need. We need to free business up. Spring Street needs to stay out of that relationship and let business keep the flexibility going. In fact, speaking to businesses and our members, they’re telling us, in fact, they believe there will be less flexibility under this sort of regime.
Journalist: What happens to those employees who can’t reach an agreement with their employer?
Sally Curtain, VCCI: As it is currently? In the current legislative framework. So those individuals can have the right to ask, and they may wish to appeal through a Fair Work mechanism federally. So there are checks and balances that exist, and there’s a whole host of test cases that are being heard, that have been heard and are coming up.
Journalist: And if those plans are scrapped?
Sally Curtain, VCCI: If the plan is scrapped, then there are sufficient checks and balances, and if the Victorian Government were genuinely concern about this, they would refer it to the federal jurisdiction, to work on.
Journalist: At what point are you going to be prepared to concede defeat on this. Thursday night when it passes Parliament? I mean, the Premier doesn’t seem for turning.
Sally Curtain, VCCI: Look, I think I think the reality is it’s so clear that this is not needed. That business are so strong. We really need to incentivise and create the right economic conditions here in Victoria. As you’ve been hearing, it’s some of the toughest environments our businesses are telling us they’ve ever had. And so again, the last thing we need is further reach from the Government into the employer-employee relationship. Stay out of it, and let businesses prosper.
Journalist: Where’s Victoria headed if Labor wins and this goes ahead?
Sally Curtain, VCCI: We are very concerned about the current trajectory of a number of economic factors. Obviously, the one that I think every Victorian is concerned about is unemployment. We are now 5.1 per cent. That is a whole percentage higher than the national average. This is thousands of people’s jobs every month.
Journalist: So where do you think unemployment will go if this happens?
Sally Curtain, VCCI: Well, I’m concerned it’s the poison pill for jobs. Our members are telling us that they are looking to employ elsewhere, where they can have the flexibility they need to deliver their services and goods.
Journalist: Say Ben Carroll meets with you this afternoon or tomorrow morning. What’s the what’s the first comment to him?
Sally Curtain, VCCI: The very first comment will be: this legislation is not needed. We have much higher priorities for the Victorian economy to incentivise jobs and growth that we’ll be talking with him about.
Journalist: Just on your point about this sort of disincentivising people from becoming a builder or working in Australia. The Government has previously said that greater flexibility would actually make their life easier, like perhaps their partner can work from home and do the cooking or take the kids to school. What do you make of that?
Michaela Lihou, MBA Vic: We’ve got a skills shortage within the building and construction industry, we need to attract and retain more people into the industry, and we also need to be looking at attracting more diverse cohorts. So, the introduction of modern methods of construction is a way of trying to attract and have some of that flexibility and diversity that we so need.
The introduction of this legislation, the challenge is going to be with regards to making sure that jobs can be delivered safely on site, making sure that the compliance is met and making sure that next generation of apprentices coming through the pipeline have got the oversight with which they need.
Journalist: So perhaps like having a partner who can work from home or greater access to working from home under this, you don’t think that would sort of make a big difference to the workforce?
Michaela Lihou, MBA Vic: The legislation, from a federal perspective, already exists for people to have flexibility, and I think that’s the key thing here, is flexibility exists across varying industries at the moment. We just don’t need extra red tape across the top at the moment.
Journalist: What are your plans, assuming this goes through Thursday this week and is in place and it starts September 1st, will Business Council be a signatory to any High Court action?
Ben Wicks, BCA: We’ll answer that question once we see what happens this week. At the end of the day, we think that the message is clear for the Premier. If he wants to focus on red tape reduction, if he wants to focus on investment, he should scrap this Bill.
Journalist: Would you encourage him to meet with you this afternoon?
Ben Wicks, BCA: Oh, look, I think we’d encourage to see the Premier with all of our employee colleagues whenever he’s available. We welcome the commitments that he made last night and the partnership that he’s talked about with business, we think that’s an important reset.
We think the Victorian economy needs that, we think that we need to fix the unemployment rate, so it’s important we sit down, we talk to the Premier, and we work out how we can work through this.
Journalist: The state opposition has signalled they will also support it after trying to put up amendments. Is this a sign that politically it is popular and you’re on the wrong side of the debate among the broader public?
Ben Wicks, BCA: Look, at the end of the day, our focus is on the national economic interest. I’ll leave the politics to other people. We encourage all parliamentarians to consider the calls from small and big business, from every sector that’s represented here today. It’s important.
Our view is that it shouldn’t proceed for economic reasons. The politics are for others to comment on, but the data is clear to see, the unemployment rate is the highest in the country.
The Business Council does a regulation report every single year, a state of the states, as you would see. Unfortunately, the regulation already before this is introduced, Victoria is coming in eighth in that report, unfortunately the worst place to do business in Australia, and we want to fix that. We don’t want that to be the case. We think it’s important for the size of the Victorian economy and for the benefit of the nation, that we fix it.