Speakers: 7.30, Host Sarah Ferguson; Business Council of Australia Chief Executive Bran Black
Topics: EPBC reform
E&OE
Sarah Ferguson, 7.30 Host: Bran Black, welcome to 7.30.
Bran Black, Chief Executive: Thanks so much for having me.
Sarah: Why the urgency this week? This is a Bill that is still going through a committee, there are hundreds of pages of legislation. Why does it need to be signed off with all of this activity this week?
Bran: Well, it’s a really good question. Our answer to that is that we want to make sure that we get the reforms right. Now we think there is an opportunity this week to do that, there are, in our view, a handful of amendments, so some key issues that need to be addressed in order to be able to turn this package into what we describe as a net overall benefit for business, so that we can deliver housing projects, renewable energy projects and so forth.
If we can do that this week, that would be terrific, and we endorse having those Bills progressed then but if we need to take more time, then we’d take the time that’s required.
Sarah: Okay, so you’re actually, the BCA is open to waiting until next year?
Bran: If we need to take that time to get the right reforms, then absolutely.
Sarah: So, you’re here in Canberra, you’ve been speaking to Coalition MPs. Are they listening to your appeal that they should be the ones to support the Government’s legislation, rather than the Government doing a deal with the Greens.
Bran: We are talking to the Government, we are talking to the Opposition, and my sense is that there is a desire on both parts to see if there can be an agreement. We hope that there can be, and we think that’s really important, because –
Sarah: You want the Government to do a deal with the Coalition?
Bran: We do, and we think that that’s important, because at the end of the day, these are really consequential reforms and I don’t think it’s overstating it to say this is the difference between our capacity to deliver the homes that Australia needs, the renewable energy projects that we need, the critical mineral projects that we need.
If we can do that, then there are obvious advantages for Australia, but to do that, we say we need reforms that stand the test of time, and that comes through having that bipartisan support from the two parties of government.
Sarah: But at the same time, what is it that you would be afraid of if this ends up with the Government doing a deal with the Greens. From your perspective, why would that not be the right outcome, specifically?
Bran: Well, we think that at the end of the day, when you’re looking at a government and opposition series of reforms, then that necessarily imports a sense of balance that you’re looking for, and certainly that business wants to see to guarantee that longevity.
If you go too far on one side, too many business benefits or too many environment benefits, that, in a sense, means that you’re less likely to get that longevity.
Sarah: What would be going too far in terms of environmental benefits, what do you regard as too far?
Bran: What we would say at the moment is that there are already some changes that we need to see. So we’ve been pointing out some key improvements to the legislation that we think are required. We’ve talked about, for example, the need to clarify the definition of ‘unacceptable impacts’ on that environmental side, we’ve talked about making sure that there are appropriate temperings of the important powers of the EPA CEO. Those are the types of changes that we’re looking to see in that respect.
Sarah: Well, let’s just talk about that for a minute. So, we’re talking about the potential to form a new agency which would have a CEO in charge. What is it in the powers that he would have, and I’m imagining this is going to go to stop work orders that he could issue.
Is that the core of your concern, that a new CEO of a new EPA could cause a project to stop?
Bran: That’s one of them. There are two core areas in which we’ve got concerns. The first is, with respect to the stop work orders, I would stress we don’t take issue with the existence of those powers. They are important powers. What we’re concerned by is that there are, at this stage, no limitations on the exercise of those powers.
We’re calling for two: the first is, if you make an oral order as the chief executive the EPA, you should be required to give written reasons for your decision within a reasonable time. And the second is, if you make an order after a reasonable period, say 14 days, you should be required to go to court if you wish to extend your order. That’s something that we think is just a basic matter of procedural fairness.
Sarah: We have all seen in Australia, in the annals of environmental destruction, terrible things happen very quickly. So the requirement to produce written orders could be the thing that stops a bad event taking place?
Bran: We’re not saying you shouldn’t be able to issue that order. We’re saying that after you’ve issued the order, you should be required to give you reasons for doing it, so that the person or the entity that is the subject of that order understands the basis on which the order has been issued, what the legal power is, and can therefore consider its position. We think that that, as I say, is just a basic requirement for procedural fairness.
Sarah: In the current draft, the minister could override environmental laws when it comes to in particular in relation to coal and gas, but also critical minerals projects. The Greens want to get rid of that exemption. What’s wrong with that?
Bran: Well, our position would be that we think it’s appropriate that there is that type of national interest approach that a minister can take, but it’s for exceptional circumstances. It’s not run-of-the-mill, it’s for exceptional circumstances.
Sarah: So are Coalition MPs listening to you that this is the time to strike this deal now or are they still reluctant to give the Government a win on this topic?
Bran: We’re certainly getting a receptive audience, people are hearing what we have to say, and as I say, we hope that there can be discussion around those key points that matter to us, both in terms of making sure that we get the right outcomes in terms of environmental benefits, but also the right outcomes that deliver the housing, renewable energy projects in the country needs.
Sarah: I just want to put something to you that Bob Brown said today. He said that you and the Minerals Council are inside the tent talking to the Government while conservation groups, like his own, are excluded. Is it true, do the biggest corporations in Australia have the upper hand in these negotiations?
Bran: I think the process that the Government’s run has actually been very fair, and I’ve been party to the discussions and the consultations that the Minister’s led that have involved business groups and environmental groups and others.
Sarah: Bob Brown’s saying they’re being excluded, they’re not getting the access that you’re getting.
Bran: I can’t speak to his particular organisation, but I can say that there have been many environmental groups engaged in these conversations, and I know that Minister Watt has been talking to them as well.
I think that the reason why we’re here now with the opportunity to consider changes is because there has been a really good consultation process so far, and I pay credit to the Minister in that regard, but I also pay credit to the Coalition because they’ve engaged and had to listen what we had to say as well.
Sarah: And in your judgment, what do you think it’s going to boil down to? Where do you think the red lines are going to end up being over the next couple of days?
Bran: I think it comes down to that package. Unfortunately, you can’t just say it’s one thing or another thing, it comes down to looking at the overarching package. And I do stress that it’s important that we get it right. At the moment, I’m aware that there are tens of thousands of homes that have been in the system that could be unlocked with the right type of reform.
You see that countries overseas, like Canada have recently made significant improvements to streamline their approvals systems, that gets major projects moving. We are in a competitive environment for investment. We need this reform to help drive our productivity, and I hope we can deliver it.
Sarah: Bran Black, thank you very much indeed for joining us.