E&OE

Ali Moore Host ABC Melbourne Drive: Do you share the confidence of Zach Smith that the union's got the capacity to address the issues?

Bran Black Chief Executive, Business Council of Australia: I think we've seen some pretty serious allegations that have been made over the course of the last 48 hours especially. But you know, last night we saw allegations of preferencing bikies and organised crime figures for lucrative union posts, allegations of preferencing some companies with EBAs, so they have an advantage in securing government contracts and others. And to my mind what that means is, because of the serious nature of these allegations, and because they involve so much public money, because so much public money is at stake, you really want to make sure that there is a full and complete investigation, and that's why we said that the appropriate course is to have a full judicial inquiry in this regard.

Ali: What are you thinking? You're thinking like a Royal Commission, is that the sort of thing?

Bran: That is exactly what we're talking about, certainly at a federal level. Of course, we've seen today already that the Premier of Victoria has indicated that the IBAC will receive, or has received, a referral in this regard, and that's an appropriate first step, we believe. Because we've seen overnight that there have been allegations concerning conduct that crosses state boundaries, it's appropriate that this be looked at a federal level, because this is obviously a union that covers the entire country. It's a national union. It's appropriate that there be that type of federal scrutiny applied through a judicially constituted inquiry.

Ali: Zach Smith of course, the national secretary says that they'll put in a leading lawyer to oversee an independent investigation. So that would be at the federal level, what would fundamentally be the difference between what they're proposing and what you're proposing?

Bran: I think it's the independence that comes with having a proper judicial inquiry in relation to these allegations. Critically, what you get when you establish this type of inquiry is a scope for whoever is leading it to compel witnesses to attend, to compel documents to be produced, and that's really important, because we're dealing with some pretty significant characters here, and we're dealing with very serious allegations, so you want to make sure that you can inevitably get to the bottom of those allegations, and that's what those types of powers afford. Equally, you want the inquiry to have the power to make recommendations, and that's really what we've got to at the end of the day, recommendations as to how we can ensure this type of activity can never occur again. There are obviously issues in terms of organisational culture, they will need to be addressed, but getting the right recommendations, getting the right person to undertake the review, is going to be key.

Ali: … Bran Black, you've got a lot of members, I guess, who build big buildings. I mean, you know they're they have to do that to get on with their business. Did these allegations shock or surprise you?

Bran: Look, I think we've been concerned about these types of issues in this sector for many years, as most industry associations have. We had a significant amount of support, of course, for the ABCC in this regard, and we were disappointed to see that the ABCC was withdrawn. We think that is something that obviously needs to be considered moving forward.

Ali: Although Tony Burke makes the point that a lot of this activity, alleged activity, happened on its watch. Anyway, it wasn't an effective body.

Bran: Well, I think that's one of those things that you look at in the context of what we do next, we need to make sure, let's, let's take, I guess, an outcomes approach to this. The outcome is you want to make sure that this type of conduct can never occur again, and that's why we say it's appropriate to have these full, open, transparent, and importantly, independent inquiry processes that can consider these issues and genuinely make suggestions for how we can go about, as I say, ensuring that we don't have these problems arising in future.

Ali: Do you believe it is a problem that is wider? I mean, very much the focus in this state has been the big build the state government projects, and the role of the CFMEU in those projects. Do you have concerns about what happens with private projects. What happens with other work that goes on in the state?

Bran: Well, I couldn't speculate on that, but we would like to see those types of issues considered in the context of that broader scope for an inquiry that I mentioned.

Ali: In the interim. Do you think, I mean, there's a couple of things that have been proposed. If you look at what Sally McManus has said, she says that everyone who is subject to criminal allegations, so therefore not proven, only alleged, that they should stand down. Do you agree with that?

Bran: I think that is appropriate. I think in those circumstances, it is appropriate that people who are the subject of investigation, they should stand down from their positions whilst that investigation runs its course. We've also seen that there are likely roles for other regulators with respect to this type of conduct, perhaps the Fair Work Ombudsman, but also the ACCC. It's appropriate that those organisations be given free rein to undertake the investigations that they're required to do by statute.

Ali: Does it surprise you? Well, I guess I just would say, why? Why is it that it took a media investigation to make these allegations? If there is a problem that you suspect is so entrenched that you want a judicial inquiry along the lines of a royal commission that really shouldn't be in the hands of the media? Should it? To find or to uncover?

Bran: Well, I noted your point when you were introducing this segment in terms of it being an investigation that was instigated not by an official organisation, and you're absolutely correct in that regard, it has been the media that's played such a critical role in uncovering these issues and making these revelations, and I think that that's a really good thing, that we've seen these issues come to light. Perhaps one of the reasons, as we, I think all saw last night on 60 Minutes, was that people are scared in some respects, in terms of their ability to come forward and speak to these types of challenges and concerns, but now that they are out, and now that they've started to be ventilated. I think it's fair to say that people expect that there would be a full and complete investigation as to how far we need to go and the extent to which these issues are prevalent and what we need to do in order to make sure they can't occur any further.